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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
18
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Posted - 2013.05.19 04:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
+ + + +
This idea is top notch. Very very nice. "If you can't see them, they can't see you."
I love how it take's away the perfect intel of cloakers, thus taking away their perfect risk-free state, without making space perfectly safe for carebears who are admittedly risk adverse.
This point must be made. Cloaking a ship in a safe spot is just as, if not more risk adverse than docking in station. Not only can you not be seen, targeted or scanned like being docked in station, but you also get the perk of being able to see on grid, combat/core/d-scan, moving freely deciding when/if to engage, they can't camp your uncloak spot AND if you're in a covert ops ship you can warp!!!
This change gives back a little risk to cloaking.
I believe that to be able to collect intel, you should also be exposing your own intel to others. As in scanning/dscanning, you should not be able to do these things without being able to also be scanned/dscanned. As such i believe you should have to uncloak to do this. Just as someone docked in station would have to undock as well, just as someone in a PoS shield would have to leave the shield to scan (and probably should for dscan also).
With as easy as scanning belts is going to be in Odyssey there really needs to be a change of this caliber. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
22
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Posted - 2013.05.24 07:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am compelled to bump this little gem of an idea. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.07.12 18:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)
I would like to point out that this is actually not true for stealth bombers. How would this system affect them?
Also though the other ships may not be able to fire immediately, they can activate a cyno from cloak status. This is what the vast majority of the fuss is about. How does this get addressed.
Everything else about this is fine. Just those 2 issues specifically.
...
And also maybe star map statistics. But that's another debate. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 19:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Stealth bombers do not need to target, if they use the bomb.
The bomb release cannot be done while maintaining a cloak, however. This is why they set up BMs before hand so they can insta warp after release, since they expect to be popped like soap bubbles otherwise.
The cyno cannot be done while cloaked either. There may be no targeting delay involved, but that doesn't mean anyone will ever see a cyno and wonder where the ship is that opened it.
If they use bombs then yeah, doesn't matter. Stealth bombers also come in torpedo and cyno flavors too.
The cyno can be used "while" cloaked, it does however bring the ship out of cloak uppon use. Yes I know this is just seems like nitpicking at words but the implications are changed completely.
Being able to use modules and in the case of the bomber targeting and engaging while being cloaked are a big deal. If this change does get implement then in the case of the SB it would be paramount to removing local entirely. One cyno SB or a gang of SBs could fly from system to system totally undetected with unchecked force projection and would be able to gank anyone at will. They would not show up in the new local until they were already engaging a target if not after its long dead depending on the delay.
This is the problem you were trying to avoid in the first place was it not? Allowing cloaks to be in system without being detected while also allowing locals to go about their business without fear of a camper. Or was it just a "CovertOps" remove local thread disguised by pretending to be impartial or "a 3rd side of the arguement"? |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 21:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:You guys know what I say is true. Wh space works because of a lot of things. Mostly the reward vs risk ratio but also very much because of the lack of hotdrops. Which again does lower the risk quite a bit without affecting reward. Why do you think people are comforable ratting in dreads? Its because they're not worried about getting plopped on my a gang of supers.
In null sec the vast majority of the reward is in moon goo. Everything else is minimal. The only reason null sec would be considered safer than high sec at any time is because of player interaction. If we wernt able to set blue standing to our neighbors then everyone would be cloaky camping eachother 24/7. The only reason this isn't as rampant of a problem as it could be is because of the massive blueness of null sec.
If every system was camped 24/7 the cost of living in null would far out weigh the benefits.
I'm sure you guys will find a way to disagree with this of course. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The paragraph on WH space is reasonable. But then you veer off the rails after that. Sure a big part of the rewards in null are moon goo, but there are other resources, some that sit largely untapped. Null has lots of issues one of which is local as an intel tool. And it is a double edged sword...hence the reason it is balanced, although I'd argue not optimal.
What I'm saying is: The reason this (afk cloaking vs local) isn't a large enough issue to warrent immediate action is because of player interaction. If regions were fighting eachother instead of blue donuted then neighbors would more than likely be camping eachother constantly making it mostly impossible to perform any isk making activity. But thanks to the "blue donut" mentality of null and the ability to claim oceans of sov there is a physical barrier between hostile groups. Causing them to have to go far out of their way to mess with each other. Infact you could consider the huge sov fields an effect of the campy stuff. The larger your buffer between you and your enemies, the safer you'll be. God forbid your home system is in blops bridge range from a hostile system. How much ratting/mining do you think would be going on there?
As for local, yeah its balanced in a way now. Cloaks (covert ops especially) are not. Local gives intel away freely to anyone/everyone. Cloaks on the otherhand can probe, d-scan and visually see other ships where as other ships cannot probe,dscan or see them.
Maybe make a module or ship that can dscan cloaked ships. This would make a cloak hunter viable but also require very high player skill to be successful. Also could delay dscan recalibration on the ship/module so you can't just spam it constantly. Also instead of the shiptype/name it could just say "cloak field" so friendly cloakers might misslead you and you inadvertantly uncloak them while they're afk.
Seems like the least change possible to do something about it. And its easy enough to avoid detection if you're at your keyboard. Also seems funny if you screw over your corp/alliance mates and get them killed. (Accidentily or intentionally) :) |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 22:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Uhhh, Erutpar Ambient, that reply seems to be drawing from a different thread than this.... miss-post?
Its all related.
One affects the other affects another.
Basically what I'm saying is if you implement this change it will give covert ops cloaks too much power and utility. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 04:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
ITT - Anti-renter/ratter/miner mindset
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Or they can be less active, sneek around with nobody knowing they are there, and and then drop cloak right in the middle of a mining op tackle the ORCA and pop a cyno. Fleet jumps in without anyone having time to warp off as they did not even see the intruder in local.
This would be far more of a buff to stealth warfare than a nerf to afk cloakers.
Personally I believe cloaked ships should not show up in local, but for different reasons. if you can not see or detect the ship how does the local becon know it is there. For balance the cloak could also prevent the ship from accessing local chat. After all how can you be connected to the becon for system chatter if it does not know you are there. But then again that is why cloaked ships do show in local. The ship itself is undetectable but its connection to the beacon lets the system know it is there. It fits with the lore either way. And there are benefits and penalties to both sides.
Having cloaked ships not be able to access local would remove the ability to disrupt operations with afk cloakers, but would add the ability for covert/black ops to attack without warning, as they would not show in local. I believe it would be an improvement, removing afk play, and adding depth to stealth game play.
At least this is how it was explained some years ago. known space has system beacons that allow for local public chatter between those in the system, constellation, or region. W-space does not have system beacons so you only show in local chat if you are transmitting.
The only thing that does not fit is if W-space is unknown space with no system becons, which it is, where did the interbus customs offices come from? Is interbus actually run by the descendants of sleepers?
If this happened there won't be any orcas in space, or mining barges, or ratter. Null sec would be Moon Goo only. All ABC mining would move into WH space.
You cannot compare this to W-space due to a multitude of feature differences.
WH space is connected by WHs that change connection randomly. Null Sec has static connections forever.
WH space Cannot be cyno jumped into and limits capital per connected WH. Null has unlimited Cyno Jump usage into a system.
WH space has bottom up income allowing losses to be easily mitigated on an individual level. Nullsec has topdown income or more realistically extremely top heavy income where individuals rarely if ever see any of the top income and are not easily able to mitigate personal losses. This is why Null Sov SRPs are so important to the success of an alliance/coalition.
In other words the Risk in Null Sec is much greater than WH space and the rewards are much less likely to be seen by the majority of inhabitants. And in the case of the renters, not only is there very little reward but you also have to pay to be there too. Extremely high risk, extremely low reward. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 20:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
As to risk in null, in the event local left? You are way off base there too.
Here is an important detail that those hunting will not have an advantage because of local being missing.
The advantage will always belong to whoever has sov, simply because the intel channels and patrols supplying them will be a huge advantage.
Those hunting in hostile territory will be on their own, and with no local to artificially tell them where everyone is, chances are they will have no idea.
They can, of course, guess, or do research to learn where people usually hang out, but unless someone spies for them and tips them where to look, they will be effectively blind.
Local is never the friend of PvE. PvE has a far more obvious advantage trading it in for an intel channel while the hunters are blind.
We seem to be talking about different aspects of risk. If you blue up with everone in your and surrounding regions, then yes, your personal risk is diminished. But if you're not a part of the blue donut persay or you're close to the borders you don't quite have that level of safety. So when I say "the risk of null sec" I don't mean the risk of the person with the least risk, I mean the risk inhearant of nullsec itself. Null sec is the only space to have super drops AND interdiction bubbles. Low is less risk because of no bubbles, WH is less risk because of no super drop and limited capital escalation. Blueing up with people is a feature of human interaction, not null sec. Null sec has the most risk, but the reward is very limited for individuals.
When you say the advantage will be in the hands of the sov owner because of intel channels and patrols, without the current local how would these intel channels and patrols find covert ops cyno ships? They don't show up on local and they only blink for a moment when switching systems. The only way to know someone was there would be with unobtainable diligence on the part of these patrols watching a gate 24/7. Or of course the covert ops pilot taking hostile action agaisnt someone which a that point would be too late.
As for the hostile, there's an easy way to find people. Starmap statistic: average pilots in space in the last hour.or number of npc ships destroyed in the last hour. Yeah those will be a pretty good indicator, though they're not the only statistics availabe that will find targets for you. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 02:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Before you can implement this, you must first implement a Cloak Hunter type of mechanic. |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
65
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:Before you can implement this, you must first implement a Cloak Hunter type of mechanic. And a POS/station eviction type mechanic as well. :)
You are dumb.
If you implement this and no Cloak Hunting tool then a Covert Ops will be too overpowered. You'd never see them come into system, you'd never see them warping around, they could just Dscan, fly where they want to and then gank/cyno when they're ready and nobody would be able to do anything to prevent it or counter it without having a Full time gate camp with drones everywhere to prevent cloaking in the first place.
Getting into a SB is easy. A large percent of null players have SBs. There would be the constant threat of SB/Bops/hotdrop and there's nothing you could do to stop it. |
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Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
Black Core Alliance
69
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Posted - 2013.08.01 06:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cade wrote:WH locals, they work, nothing wrong with them...
same would work really in everywhere and there is no issues?
if you want to show up, then just spam your scams like never nothing changed = jita save
if you want to surprise, go ahead, no1 never knows what happened, and you have more effort to bang some1
this would also improve usage of dscan and other gamemechanics wich are more "realistic" than just showing up in "local" wich is imo from RP view channel where ships/stations broadcast messages and then your ID is revealed when you do so.
Also from other point of view, this is more realistic way, there is custom channels where you can showup if you like.
RP JITA BANG MINER SAVE ?!
Cloaked ships don't show up on D-Scan. WH's don't have Cynos to jump in unlimited capitals much less supercapitals. WH's don't have covert cynos to Bops in a gank squad and Bops out before anyone can counter tackle. WHs don't have static connections to adjacent systems forever. WHs don't have starmap statistics showing what systems have people and activity based upgrades.
RP view does not equal functional in a game. |
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